peekaboo - 22 October 2009 02:00 AM

Politics and religion do NOT go well together

: )

Airspeed - 25 October 2009 05:11 AM

...basing opinions on what the news media has churned out for the masses since 9/11 is very dangerous…

Unless you have some cast-iron, first hand, empirical source of information, it sounds to me as if that is exactly what you are doing. Otherwise could you please state your sources for the following assertions?

...fighting these Muslim religious extremists and those that support them no matter where they are on this planet

(Saddam being one of the supporters).

I honestly can’t believe anyone is still pushing the tired and discredited nonsense that Saddam Hussein posed any kind of threat to anyone outside his borders. Why are you clinging to this horseshit? Are you that desperate for a justification?

And if you want to ignore all of the gassings of entire villages, mass graves, meat grinders and acid baths that Saddam was responsible for then I REALLY DON’T KNOW WHAT TO SAY TO THAT.

May I ask where you get your information from regarding these alleged atrocities? It wouldn’t be the ‘news media’ would it? If so, why is your ‘news media’ any more reliable than mine? May I ask which ‘news media’ outlets you trust and which you don’t and for what reasons?

There are plenty of sadistic depots around the world who are busy torturing and killing their own people. Do you advocate invading all those countries and ‘liberating’ them? Where is your support for a war in Zimbabwe or Sudan or North Korea? If the Iraq adventure is so admirable then surely you must advocate going to Burma and liberating that country too?

Basically, I taught two of them how to fly back in the late 90’s.

And this gives you a greater moral and political insight into the rationale behind the invasion of Iraq? Can you explain to me the connection between the events of September 2001 and the invasion of Iraq?

Freedom is too important to throw away and comments against fighting for our freedom and the freedom of others just pisses me off.

You sound like a Rush Limbaugh bumper sticker. The invasion of Iraq has nothing to do with freedom and everything to do with the strategic security of energy resources.

I share your dismay at how the men and women that make up our armed forces are being fed into a mincing machine at the behest of our cowardly political strategists but I am unable to find any kind of noble or admirable angle with which to comfort my conscience. I almost envy your ability to justify it as some kind of morally admirable crusade for freedom but I’m afraid my bullshit filter won’t allow that. They and their civilian counterparts are dying in their thousands for nothing more noble than a blatant grab for resources.

I’m truly not interested in indulging in a partisan one side good/other side bad pseudo political ‘debate’ with you as it is transparently obvious which side of the fence you reside on and I’m certain nobody is going to influence you in any meaningful way.

Incidentally, in your earlier post you referred to Obama as ‘un-American’ and I would just like to take the opportunity to remind you that there are currently approaching six BILLION un-Americans on this planet, to whom the prosperity of your nation is not a prime concern. Believe it or not, your country is not the only civilisation on earth.

That said, I spend a lot of time in your country and I can see how viewpoints like yours are encouraged and tend to form the status quo. I don’t expect you to agree with anything I have written but I feel compelled to offer my viewpoint.

: )

Airspeed - 25 October 2009 07:03 AM

I want to live in a free market society…

If the current model of protectionism and plutocracy ever becomes a free-market society you’ll be sure to let me know I hope.

I really do respect you as an artist…

That’s nice to hear, but please bear in mind that when you listen to my records you’re listening to Marxist, socialist, anti-war, pro-welfare state music made by somebody who believes the rich should feed the poor and who strongly disapproves of the dropping of white phosphorous munitions on children and other innocent civilians.

I hope this doesn’t spoil your enjoyment.

Never, your music is top notch in my opinion. So I guess 1984 and THX 1138 are favorite movies of yours? Dropping munitions on innocent people sucks just like flying 767’s into skyscrapers, I see your point but hope you can see the other side of things as well. At least you’ll never run out of inspiration for the music you create. Keep the music coming comrade… just kidding (about the comrade part)...

PEACE and cheers!!!

Airspeed - 25 October 2009 07:03 AM

You can say bad things about America all you want…

You really must try to grasp the idea that the act of questioning your government’s actions does not a constitute an attack on your nation as a whole.

As I said, I spend a lot of time in the USA and pretty much everyone I meet shares my view that way too many people - soldiers and civilians - have died in the almighty clusterfuck that is the Iraq war.

Most also agree that the poorest 20% of your population should be entitled to some kind of healthcare provision and none are labouring under the misapprehension that you live in a true free-market economy.

You’re entitled to your opinions and I’m not trying to change your mind, but please don’t start with the strawman “Why do you hate America/freedom..?” stuff. Dissent is not treason and patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

They do have a health care provision…It’s called walk into any hospital in America and you can not be refused medical attention. How is spending a Trillion dollars on a health care plan when our country is bankrupt going to make things any better. I too agree that everyone should be entitled to QUALITY health care but trusting the government to implement and manage this is insane. I don’t want to be put on a three to six month waiting list if I get sick because the paperwork is stuck in the bureaucratic paper shuffle. I want to see someone now and if my child is sick I want to see someone yesterday. I think the hospitals should be funded just like our schools and police are, not left on their own like a struggling small business.

Since we’re talking about health care we get a lot of “you don’t want to end up like the British” comments about Obama’s health care bill. Please set me straight on what a hospital visit is really like in England if you have time. We keep hearing that some people die waiting or get refused medicine because the government run system over there is so bogged down. Is any of this true or is it some sort of scare tactic? Cheers!

Airspeed - 25 October 2009 09:04 AM

Since we’re talking about health care we get a lot of “you don’t want to end up like the British” comments about Obama’s health care bill. Please set me straight on what a hospital visit is really like in England if you have time. We keep hearing that some people die waiting or get refused medicine because the government run system over there is so bogged down. Is any of this true or is it some sort of scare tactic? Cheers!

It is nonsense. You also get bombarded with utter nonsense about “Nazi death-lists” too and that is just as much bullshit.

One obscure Conservative politician [Daniel Hannan] did the rounds of the US TV news media running down the NHS [National Health Service] and was quickly disowned by his own party.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/aug/14/health-nhs

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-slaps-down-tory-mep-daniel-hannan-over-nhs-attack-1772164.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6039016/David-Cameron-urged-to-withdrawn-whip-from-Daniel-Hannan.html

Those three links are from British newspapers from across the political spectrum.

Mr Hannan obviously has his own agenda but you would be very hard pressed to find any other British politician who would support the abolition of the NHS.

Over the years I have broken both legs, both arms, a collar bone, fractured my skull twice and experienced quite severe burns to my hands. I have also been treated for depression and a serious sleep disorder.

My experience of the NHS is overwhelmingly positive and I suspect that I possibly would not even been here were it not for the quality of care I received at times when I really needed it. In all that time I never once had the added stress of having to consider my ability to pay for my treatment or received a bill for it afterwards.

The NHS offers world class medical treatment to all those who need it, regardless of their ability to pay and is one of the biggest reasons I would never want to live in any other country. For perspective I recently lived in Spain for three years and, despite the fact that the Spanish healthcare system is world renowned for the quality of treatment it offers, now I am back living in Britain it feels really good to be back within the care of the NHS.

There are waiting lists and it is by no means perfect but I certainly favour it over the US model, where insurance companies, supported by their powerful lobbyists, are free to crank up their premiums as they wish and routinely either refuse people cover based upon their medical history, or refuse to pay out on a technicality.

And whilst I accept that those without health insurance won’t be denied treatment in an emergency, you neglect to mention that they will definitely be billed after they are discharged. A friend of mine in Blacksburg, VA, recently received a bill for nearly $12,000 after he was treated for a broken leg.

Get well soon, eh?

Airspeed - 25 October 2009 09:04 AM

I think the hospitals should be funded just like our schools and police are…

How are they funded? Public funds, surely?

: )

I thought this thread was dead, boy was I wrong. In reply to Kodara about the US economy being Bush

Thanks for the reply Kodara. I think for the most part we’re on the same page but I think the moods in our two countries are so different right now that it gives both of us a different perspective on world events. It really sucks over here right now in many ways, but in reality it still is a great country to live in. I sure would like to come over to your part of the world so I could just take a breather from all of this nonsense over here. The media and politicians are really making this place seem like the basis for a really dark Pink Floyd album if you know what I mean. Time to permanently turn off the TV and turn up the music. Cheers!!! 

Ott - 25 October 2009 08:22 AM

That’s nice to hear, but please bear in mind that when you listen to my records you’re listening to Marxist, socialist, anti-war, pro-welfare state music made by somebody who believes the rich should feed the poor and who strongly disapproves of the dropping of white phosphorous munitions on children and other innocent civilians.

I hope this doesn’t spoil your enjoyment.

Brilliant Just when I thought “Joyful Wonder” couldn’t possibly get any better…

I agree with what you write Ott. I’m now finishing off a 3-year undergraduate degree on North American studies at the University of Oslo, and naturally I’ve spent a lot of time working with this debate.
What I find is that our discussion turns into something even more interesting once we’ve finalized our arguments against American hegemony and their foreign policy, because that criticism is as necessary as it is delicate.

But here’s the kicker.

Looking at emerging empires today, China certainly is becoming a force of considerable power. They’re already now aquiring assets in the Middle east, buying Norwegian oil companies from the Americans, and purchasing land for possible new oil fields.
China literally sacrifices people to work in their booming economy. They bring slaves from the countryside, strip them of their rights, and send them to work till they die. The US - with all their constitutional erosion can never ever compete with a Chinese market built on the complete removal of human rights. As a centralized economical structure is globally intact, China surely will rise to immense power within the next 20-30 years.
Let’s be frank. I fundamentally believe the US needs to be in power, if we have to choose between China and the US as the main source of power and influence over others. Their influence over us is not fundamentally good, but it is by far the lesser evil. There’s no question the US went into Iraq to keep oil a western commodity, France’s oil-fields have been booming the last 5 years, and Norway are making record profits. Because of the Iraq war, the Norwegian welfare society can live off its rents for yet another decade. The Clinton and Bush doctrines only emphasize this. Yes, people suffer greatly at the American expense, but nevertheless, Europe needs the US to keep hegemony. The UK is in dire need of the integrity of American power, so much that they provide the intelligence for American led NATO wars, to aquire the assets for the continued integrity of western markets.

Our criticism of the US and their relentless cynicism only reflects one side to the love / hate relationship the US always have been subjected to. Now, I don’t mean to be too deterministic, but it looks like this is the fate of our world for now.
My point is - all this is reflected through the Nobel Peace Prize. Europe, again, chooses their allegiance. We choose our Empires. Obama is an image of a new, progressive US, which is exactly what the weak European politicians need nowadays. The peace prize has provided conscience for American will, and the dissilusionment that followed the prize is only a reflection of the fact that Europe is backed up into a corner - as is the US.

It all boils down to the problematic nature of critisizing the US for what they do. US foreign policy is horrible, immoral and despicable, and we need to vocalize our opposition to it. Similarly, we need to look at ways of keeping American power intact, while minimizing the toll other people, and ecology need to pay for it. US power is the very thing that keeps European societies floating on a relative wave of wealth. But, we’re on a down slope now. Things look really, really bad over the pond right now. Being realistic the US will probably wage a cold war against China, now that US power is condensed to military power alone. The outcome of such a conflict is going to keep Europe as a pawn in a brutal game of chess between the empires. I think we’re in for some tough times.

EDIT: I went to Vancouver this summer, and found a great bumper sticker.

“If you liked Iraq, you’ll love Iran”

: )