Hello….venturing into the shpongle forum for the first time after reports of spleen venting and bile splattering came to my ears.
to steal or not to steal .... that is the question, it has has existed as a moral dilema for mankind ever since he/she lived communally and had stuff he or she treasured/envied.
The internet has meant that this act of theft can now be achieved without reprimand or punishment and without having to even leave your warm,womb like sofa/couch but the moral dilema remains constant- is it right to steal someone’s property? and i’m afraid a piece of muisc does belong to somebody and he/she is called an artist.when you buy it you are paying for the right to experience it when you download it from a torrent you are stealing. There can be no denying the moral shitness in doing this…whether the internet has created a new reality( a reality of mindless,moral-free information whores) or not dont kid your stuff with geek philosophy about changed pardigms and unchangeable technological realities.
When man acts according to a basic morality then he doesn’t need the oppressive hand of the state and laws to bind him- i love that the internet so far has no government as such and is essentially anarchic but we are showing our lame need for state control and oppression when we see how we’ve taken the gift of the internet and turned it into a giant theft machine…. if this contnues as it is set to do governments will step in with the excuse of needing to “police ” the internet and we will be left with an internet run by a global internet police force and the greatest to tool for human freedom will be turned into the greatest tool for human repression ever created….. and guess what we’ll all be to blame for once again failing as humans to act morally when shown true freedom. In china the internet in controlled by the government and is slowly being turned into a way of monitoring every individuals shopping habit,politival views, social networks and pervertions…when our government wants to do this they will have the trashy newpapers of the western world pleading with the govenrments to step in and control the internet and protect us from the “anarchy,pervertion and theft”(daily mail,uk 2008) that exists now. The government will obligingly step in on behalf of the ftse 100 and they will have achieved the ultimate way of monitoring and controlling their society.
Or maybe they dont give a shit and musicians will go bust or spend the rest of their lives on tour whilst squeezing new albums out on laptops after sound check( count me out if that’s the case)..... either way i think if you nick something on a torrent site… and end up loving it you should support it- purely for selfish reasons- coz u want MORE in the future!
Or maybe they dont give a shit and musicians will go bust or spend the rest of their lives on tour whilst squeezing new albums out on laptops after sound check( count me out if that’s the case)
x Benji
This will most likely be the case. If the government does get involved with controlling the internet, it will be because they have something to gain from it (taxes, perhaps?) But lets take the case where they do get involved - do the artists really want that? They’d have to create some system where torrents (and also things like rapidshare .rar’s) would have to go through some “inspection” process, or in other words, a way to differentiate between legitimate files and those being pirated or illegal in some fashion. You don’t have to know much about the internet to understand that this would cost an exorbitant amount of money. So they would compensate in some form with taxes. It could either be a general raise of taxes, or a creation of a new tax that artists might have to pay for each digital download, or something I’m not thinking of because it would get very complicated very fast. In the long run, it would mean a near complete overhaul of the internet, something which has been in development for a long long time and is still undergoing improvements (ipv6 anyone?)
Without going into the thousands of problems and (moral) issues that immediately arise, an end result could be artists having to go through the goddamn government. It wouldn’t be too soon that they’d have control of record labels and distribution (if they didn’t already have control of distribution already).
So I say, screw that, there are other alternatives. I was looking through the forum and people posted some good ideas. For instance, when releasing demos to the press, make slight but noticeable changes in each one and note which version was sent to who, then when one (or even multiple) get leaked, you can catch whoever did it with their pants down and inform the rest of the industry who isn’t reliable. I think a lot of artists would benefit in this way - it would create a sort of “blacklist” of untrustworthy press and with press getting refused demos altogether, other companies will take a step back and think before they release it to the public.
Anyways, since the above shit with the government/internet will probably never happen, this comes back to just SUPPORTING THE ARTISTS. And many of us need to take a lesson here :/. It might not mean much coming from a dozen or so people on a forum, but there are those of us that not only appreciate what you do, but make a contribution in the process. I hope you (and the rest of Twisted) keep up what you’re doing - it sort of saddens me to see that you’d so easily give up touring/performing (I love YB concerts to death!) but in lieu of your circumstances, I can’t say I blame you.
The internet has meant that this act of theft can now be achieved without reprimand or punishment and without having to even leave your warm,womb like sofa/couch but the moral dilema remains constant- is it right to steal someone’s property? and i’m afraid a piece of muisc does belong to somebody and he/she is called an artist.when you buy it you are paying for the right to experience it when you download it from a torrent you are stealing. There can be no denying the moral shitness in doing this
Do you consider “evaluating” software by downloading a crack stealing?
It’s essentially the same thing, isn’t it? I’m sure there are few computer musicians who haven’t “tried before buying” because it’s understood that since open software isn’t returnable, and there may be system conflicts, bugs, etc., it’s in the customer’s best interest to do so.
And if it doesn’t work? It goes in the trash. No waste, no expense in producing another copy. I don’t see the difference between “evaluating” software and “stealing/sharing” music. If you don’t like the album and value memory, throw it in the trash. Personally, I don’t dl and keep music without paying for it, because as you said, I want more of it and understand that album sales are probably the most important source of income for the artist.
It BECOMES stealing when the album/software is kept and used after an unreasonable length of time without paying for it/supporting the artist. I don’t defend this at all. I agree with you and everyone else who knows that this only hurts the artist.
So there has to be a check in the form of digital watermarking, including name and email in metadata like itunes does, time-sensitive trial versions, etc.
Prometheus - 27 October 2009 07:15 PM
dont kid your stuff with geek philosophy about changed pardigms and unchangeable technological realities.
Geek philosophy? WTF? Times have changed. What’s geeky about that? And technological reality is development of both sides. Prevention and enabling. File-sharing/stealing will only exist as long as security fails to catch up. I think it will inevitably though, and will probably have no sympathy for the evaluation argument used by so many software “thieves”.
Prometheus - 27 October 2009 07:15 PM
either way i think if you nick something on a torrent site… and end up loving it you should support it- purely for selfish reasons- coz u want MORE in the future!
Life is just one damn thing after another, it seems.
Everybody is so convinced that they’re right and who’s wrong. If the current situation isn’t ideal, rather do something constructive about it than sit around all day bitching and moaning. I don’t have the money to order a box full of discs from Twisted but in the past few days I’ve talked three of my friends (Shpongle virgins) into ordering their own copies of Ineffable - what’s more is I did it using youtube videos of some of the leaked songs (I know that’s going to make some of you vomit).
Point is, I don’t have the money to bankroll Twisted though I’d like to see them stay in business just as much as I’d like to see some other musical acts drop off the face of this planet. Best I can do right now is talk some other people into putting Shpongle before the Jonas Brothers… but I’m doing it.
Twenty-five pages of bickering on a Shpongle forum is irony to begin with. Stop wasting time and actually do something if you care so much.
The internet has meant that this act of theft can now be achieved without reprimand or punishment and without having to even leave your warm,womb like sofa/couch but the moral dilema remains constant- is it right to steal someone’s property? and i’m afraid a piece of muisc does belong to somebody and he/she is called an artist.when you buy it you are paying for the right to experience it when you download it from a torrent you are stealing. There can be no denying the moral shitness in doing this…whether the internet has created a new reality( a reality of mindless,moral-free information whores) or not dont kid your stuff with geek philosophy about changed pardigms and unchangeable technological realities.
When man acts according to a basic morality then he doesn’t need the oppressive hand of the state and laws to bind him
...
It’s not quite that clear cut. First, there is no physical product being taken, it’s magical duplication. There are just as many albums still on the shelf. I say it that way because that’s how it can be considered theft, is that there are still all those copies on the shelf not being sold. Lost sales, etc. But it’s far-fetched to imagine every download as a lost sale. There are so many great songs, albums, and artists out there that I couldn’t even dream of buying everything in my collection. Maybe 10% of it. That means I either don’t get to enjoy that other 90% because I don’t have money or I get to enjoy it but they don’t get a paycheck. Either way, they’re not going to get paid. Then there are all the new listeners, such as many in this thread, who would never have gotten into this music if they couldn’t download it for free. I’m sure you know how it is - you’ve got 20 bucks and you’re going out to buy a new album, do you buy that album you’ve never heard before or the new album from a band you’re familiar with? Money is an issue for us, the consumers, as well.
So, say a guy, who doesn’t know much about you, downloads your whole discography and likes it. He then buys 1 album, or a T-shirt, or whatever. You’ve made more money than if he passed you over because he didn’t know who you were and didn’t want to risk his money on an album that might suck. Of course you have to counterbalance that against those who could easily afford your album that they know they enjoy, but don’t pay because hey… they don’t have to. It’s hard to say how the numbers crunch out on that, but I imagine it’s closer to a middle ground than on the far end.
And then what about all of us who just don’t have enough money to buy every album that we do know we want? As a musician, Prometheus, do you think we simply shouldn’t be able to enjoy it? As mentioned, you won’t lose any money whether I download it and don’t pay or if I don’t download and don’t pay. Same difference for you, except I get to enjoy the music in one case.
On the flip side, we do have a moral obligation and selfish reasons to support the musicians. They need to make money to make more good music, and they also need money to simply pay the bills. And it’s up to each of us… don’t assume the next guy is going to pick up your slack. Unfortunately, I can’t afford to support every artist I enjoy, but I can at least help support the cream of the crop, such as the guys at Twisted and others in my “top” list. They deserve the money and its our duty to pay them where we can, even if we don’t have to.
My point is that it’s not all black and white. Stealing isn’t a great word to use and the whole situation can be morally ambiguous. But let’s not take it for granted… the music doesn’t make itself.
Hello….venturing into the shpongle forum for the first time after reports of spleen venting and bile splattering came to my ears.
to steal or not to steal .... that is the question, it has has existed as a moral dilema for mankind ever since he/she lived communally and had stuff he or she treasured/envied.
The internet has meant that this act of theft can now be achieved without reprimand or punishment and without having to even leave your warm,womb like sofa/couch but the moral dilema remains constant- is it right to steal someone’s property? and i’m afraid a piece of muisc does belong to somebody and he/she is called an artist.when you buy it you are paying for the right to experience it when you download it from a torrent you are stealing. There can be no denying the moral shitness in doing this…whether the internet has created a new reality( a reality of mindless,moral-free information whores) or not dont kid your stuff with geek philosophy about changed pardigms and unchangeable technological realities.
When man acts according to a basic morality then he doesn’t need the oppressive hand of the state and laws to bind him- i love that the internet so far has no government as such and is essentially anarchic but we are showing our lame need for state control and oppression when we see how we’ve taken the gift of the internet and turned it into a giant theft machine…. if this contnues as it is set to do governments will step in with the excuse of needing to “police ” the internet and we will be left with an internet run by a global internet police force and the greatest to tool for human freedom will be turned into the greatest tool for human repression ever created….. and guess what we’ll all be to blame for once again failing as humans to act morally when shown true freedom. In china the internet in controlled by the government and is slowly being turned into a way of monitoring every individuals shopping habit,politival views, social networks and pervertions…when our government wants to do this they will have the trashy newpapers of the western world pleading with the govenrments to step in and control the internet and protect us from the “anarchy,pervertion and theft”(daily mail,uk 2008) that exists now. The government will obligingly step in on behalf of the ftse 100 and they will have achieved the ultimate way of monitoring and controlling their society.
Or maybe they dont give a shit and musicians will go bust or spend the rest of their lives on tour whilst squeezing new albums out on laptops after sound check( count me out if that’s the case)..... either way i think if you nick something on a torrent site… and end up loving it you should support it- purely for selfish reasons- coz u want MORE in the future!
x Benji
Benji, I think what most ppl are saying here is that people nick and listen and DO want to buy and are willing to spend some $$, but they don’t want the damn CD, they want the hidef FLAC. The fact that there isn’t a “give me digital high def Twisted media RIGHT NOW in exchange for $$” on the main site is one of the big issues. Any permutation of this would rock my socks off. I’d subscribe to the Benji’s “track a month club” lol for a fee, no questions asked. The produkt is music, but its all in how it’s packaged my friend.
i can see not getting full size files is a bore…. i’m sure we can start selling hidef FLAC files and imagery to make life smoother
That would be great! I already have all my Twisted CDs grabbed to flac on my PC, it’s so much more convenient than physical CDs (I don’t even remember where I put them). It is also so much better to get the product immediately without having to wait (and to pay) for shipment. I would definitely buy some more Twisted albums in flac format.
Also a full disk flac has the benefit of not having gaps between tracks which makes perfect sense for Shpongle.
And BTW you can even modify some least significant bits of the source waveform, just enough to embed a unique code for each download… The resulting information (and hence quality) loss will be negligible for something as large as a CD, but every download will now be unique and traceable (when not converted to mp3, of course). I know it may be resource consuming and hardly useful, but it’s technically possible. And everyone will get their personal unique version of the album
Okay, first couple of words about filesharing. The following are facts. Without filesharing, me and many of my friends would have not heard about Shpongle, Hallucinogen, OTT, or Younger Brother. Without filesharing, we would have not came to the gigs here in our country and across the globe.
And the following are purely speculation. I believe that without filesharing, many artists under the Twisted Records would not be as widely respected, appreciated and especially loved as they are today. And because of that, I believe people will come to see you playing live on stage and hopefully also more people will pay for music. Also the trend seems to be more or less that people dont want to buy any physical media with the music, they just want to download it with proper quality, lets say lossless FLAC, and they rather gather unforgettable memories from live shows.
Also in some parts of the world electronic music cannot be heard by mainstream radio/tv and there just simply does not exist proper record shops to buy “underground” music. When I first heard about Twisted, I could not name a single store that would sell this kind of music. Just lately internet has provided solution to buy music without country borders. And yes, Finland is pretty far away, just yesterday dailymail posted that we are famous from igloos :D http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223033/Unhappy-UK-fails-make-10-worlds-prosperous-countries.html
And back to the facts. I have been listening music produced by the Twisted Records for a while now so I just ordered 8 cds, a dvd and a t-shirt (Order Number: 9393). And based on some discussion with my friends, also they have already purchased or are going to order some music and clothes.
So Twisted staff, I have really enjoyed your music in my home and parties, especially gigs on last Ozora. Please keep on composing mindblowing music!
alright so this will be treated either as controversial, or as “no duh” - depending on who reads it:
my theory is that the declining psytrance scene is in some way connected to the decline in hallucinogen (esp LSD) use since the small boom in the late 90’s. this is further exemplified by the commercial success of acts like IM and GMS, who have moved on to different markets (in IM’s case the cock-sucking market, and in GMS’s case the eccy filled ibiza market).
another theory i have is that the decline of goa (the place) has also contributed, but i don’t know enough on the topic to make any real claims.
in any case, all our problems would be solved if someone would drop shpongle CD’s with blotter covers out of a plane onto the unsuspecting masses.
alright so this will be treated either as controversial, or as “no duh” - depending on who reads it:
my theory is that the declining psytrance scene is in some way connected to the decline in hallucinogen (esp LSD) use since the small boom in the late 90’s. this is further exemplified by the commercial success of acts like IM and GMS, who have moved on to different markets (in IM’s case the cock-sucking market, and in GMS’s case the eccy filled ibiza market).
another theory i have is that the decline of goa (the place) has also contributed, but i don’t know enough on the topic to make any real claims.
in any case, all our problems would be solved if someone would drop shpongle CD’s with blotter covers out of a plane onto the unsuspecting masses.
we can all dream.
I used to share your opinion but (un)fortunately I’ve come to realize that blotters are not the magic solution. They can be helpful to people but they can be damaging too. It depends on the individual’s mind, mindset and brainchemistry. The stuff is really not suitable to everyone in my opinion… and I hardly dare to recommend anyone to use that stuff anymore. I used to love it to death but the effects are too temporary so I switched to sober meditation…
I’ve not been into psytrance scene since the beginning but I would expect it has grown a lot.
A lot more people know and like the music compared to many years ago. There are a lot more bands… this means more bad music but also more good music.
The masses in general, so not just psytrancers, are suffering a lot from the pressures of daily existance.
There’s a lot of suffering on planet earth… governments are f#cking up the masses, dumbing us down, teaching us to fight eachother… instead of loving eachother.
I hope that psytrance scene will continue to inspire many kids to drop the selfish attitudes and start working to create a better world.
A better world does not come by itself, we will all need to work hard… and try to convince everyone to work hard to change this world for the better.
We can’t sit on our ass and expect the government to make things better.
We should know by now they are about profit, not peace.
People need to wake up to the fact that the world needs their help.
Partying, chasing ecstasies, making new babies and raising new families are all good FUN…
but in my opinion, if other people and animals are suffering we should work to save them first…
Party-addicts can’t save the world cause they’re too busy getting high.
The world needs more activists.
