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Posted: 04 November 2009 01:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 451 ]  
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Ian* - 03 November 2009 07:21 AM

Alot of people talk about a post-file sharing business plan. I’m curious of how you could actually do this.

What most people care about is the music. The problem is if the music itself is free do you really think that a Shongle video game or Shpongle wallpaper are going to pay the band’s expenses? I give alot more of a shit that Shpongle is putting out a new album than if they sold branded cup holders.

Where I am not seeing the business model not working here is basic economics: The music takes time and money to make, but people aren’t paying for it. For most of us these days (superstar dj’s aside) making music is generally a losing investment. Money for software,hardware, hard drives, effects processors/plugins, mic preamps, etc. Then you can expect maybe a hundred or so for a show every few weeks. Meanwhile, you work another job to pay the rent. Where does this pay off?

I’ve been hearing of artists these days giving up on music as a career and instead making free offerings from time to time and asking for donations.(Bluetech for ex) Many artists would probably be better off as a street performers.

So if the music doesn’t directly make the money, let us think about the consequences of this: To make money on peripheral items entails investing LESS in the music and music production. I find it ironic people blaming Twisted for pulling the stops on albums and concerts, and then ask for more quality recordings and shows.

If Twisted Records’ primary focus was something other than the music, something which according to this new business model would be necessary for profit, would we be ok with fewer, more rushed and low budget releases, and more stripped down live shows?

Would fans feel that the time and money for a Shpongle lunchbox or whatever was worth skimping on the recordings and concert production? Major labels made this transitions long ago, bastardizing and commercializing the art until all you have left are model tv/film crossover artists with clothing lines gracing generic auto-tuned radio garbage tracks. That is what happens when the music ceases to matter and becomes a means to sell other things.

What you’re talking about is merchandise; not a business model. And you certainly don’t want to sell out with that tripe (i.e. merchandise). But regardless of what you create, if you want to get it out there and make a career out of it, you have to use a business model. Not all business model products are lunchboxes and mugs and shit like that. A good music business model is about creating a musical project that is designed to be worth buying; so the artist enjoys making it, and the fans enjoying purchasing it.

Here’s an example: You make the music; you want to release it. Given today’s p2p swell, you decide it’s probably best to try giving it away for free on popular (not torrent) sites (like soundcloud). People get interested in it. You make a package for a physical release, and you promote it as a limited edition thing with nice artwork, lovely packaging and a few bonuses (maybe some extra tracks or a DVD). People love it! And because it’s limited edition, you sell all the copies, make a profit and somewhere along the line the bonus tracks get put on the internet. Everybody’s happy! You - the artist - get a little more popular. People are downloading your tracks. You do some free lance work on the side as a sound designer - get some cred and money for that. Make a new EP; better promotion; larger fan base. Again, people download and you create a limited physical release. Only demand is higher this time. And you carry on like that. It could be a success or a failure - just like any recording contract, or if you setup an imprint.

This isn’t a sellout scheme. It’s about making music and getting it out there the way you want to. It’s tough and the money probably isn’t that great. But that’s why lot’s of artists do other sonic projects on the side; like orchestration, or sound design for film, TV and games.

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Posted: 04 November 2009 04:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 452 ]  
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I think to be honest, the music itself is more important, and should always be moreso than the buisness model. Its quite clearly fucked. Music can be condensed to mp3 and beamed easilly. So until the internet becomes regulated and policed; anyone trying to exist by selling tunes is always going to have that problem. Live shows, tickets, the “I was there” factor has to be the main selling point.

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Posted: 04 November 2009 05:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 453 ]  
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Just wanted to chip in here on my view as fan: My wife and I traveled all the way from South Africa for this last concert, plus I own all the disks (and I would own a few t-shirts too if they made XXL). I bought a ticket for a friend of mine who lives in London too. I really love the music and wanted to see the show and hear the songs first hand.

Part of what I was keen on was to get some more “merchandise” and early access to the new album. What surprised me was that the CD at the concert was

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Posted: 04 November 2009 11:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 454 ]  
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heard it stoned and all i can say is thats its a great journey through many ineffable places you never visited before though familiar…really really magical…

mabye i will post a review another day ^^ (didn’t write one for any abum yet)

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Posted: 04 November 2009 02:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 455 ]  
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This thread has become so widely discussed I felt like I needed to say something.  The best things twisted records can do, because file sharing will never go away. 

Cut overhead
Print less copies of albums, make the albums limited editions for the most devoted fans who are going to buy a hard copy no matter what.  Before you even send the masters off for production make the album available for purchase online in lossless/lossy formats.  Allow all the customers who pre-order hard copies access to the digital files before they get their hard copy.  Write tracks specific for the hard copies that aren’t on the digital releases to entice everyone to buy them up quicker.  If demand is still ridiculously high for more hard copies you can always look at a second printing, but at least you haven’t put all your eggs in one basket if it doesn’t.

Encourage sharing of your music
I know this sounds counter-intuitive and not conducive to a good business model, but the traditional business model from corporate america, just doesn’t work with music anymore.  BBC just had an article about how people who file share spend almost twice as much yearly on hard copies over people who don’t (source).  If you take the above advice this will guard you against most of the bleed out caused by file sharing.  The encouragement comes with an addendum of this: a message to your fans to always link back to a place to buy digital copies of the album or donate every place they share your music.  People who are sharing the music who think they will get in trouble, will go to every effort to hide the fact that they are sharing your music from getting back to you, this includes linking to your site.  If you give them that permission as long as they link to a place to buy the album digitally or donate, they will come out into the light.  Think of this like pirate jujitsu, you are using all the time and effort they are putting into spreading your music to get people back to you where they can support you financially.  This leads to the next major thing.

Focus profits on other products and merchandise. 
Start a netlabel and start release more EP’s/back catalogs even if it’s secondary songs that didn’t make the albums people will still buy those digital copies with only the overhead of the website you are already paying for anyway.  “Buy a Schpongle t-shirt?  Get a free exclusive track download!”  You know people are going to share the music regardless so building the fan base and giving them a lot of cool shit to buy and come to shows for is where the money is really at.

...and that’s all I have to say about that.

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Posted: 04 November 2009 04:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 456 ]  
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iTranscendence - 04 November 2009 02:47 PM

This thread has become so widely discussed I felt like I needed to say something.  The best things twisted records can do, because file sharing will never go away. 

Cut overhead
Print less copies of albums, make the albums limited editions for the most devoted fans who are going to buy a hard copy no matter what.  Before you even send the masters off for production make the album available for purchase online in lossless/lossy formats.  Allow all the customers who pre-order hard copies access to the digital files before they get their hard copy.  Write tracks specific for the hard copies that aren’t on the digital releases to entice everyone to buy them up quicker.  If demand is still ridiculously high for more hard copies you can always look at a second printing, but at least you haven’t put all your eggs in one basket if it doesn’t.

Encourage sharing of your music
I know this sounds counter-intuitive and not conducive to a good business model, but the traditional business model from corporate america, just doesn’t work with music anymore.  BBC just had an article about how people who file share spend almost twice as much yearly on hard copies over people who don’t (source).  If you take the above advice this will guard you against most of the bleed out caused by file sharing.  The encouragement comes with an addendum of this: a message to your fans to always link back to a place to buy digital copies of the album or donate every place they share your music.  People who are sharing the music who think they will get in trouble, will go to every effort to hide the fact that they are sharing your music from getting back to you, this includes linking to your site.  If you give them that permission as long as they link to a place to buy the album digitally or donate, they will come out into the light.  Think of this like pirate jujitsu, you are using all the time and effort they are putting into spreading your music to get people back to you where they can support you financially.  This leads to the next major thing.

Focus profits on other products and merchandise. 
Start a netlabel and start release more EP’s/back catalogs even if it’s secondary songs that didn’t make the albums people will still buy those digital copies with only the overhead of the website you are already paying for anyway.  “Buy a Schpongle t-shirt?  Get a free exclusive track download!”  You know people are going to share the music regardless so building the fan base and giving them a lot of cool shit to buy and come to shows for is where the money is really at.

...and that’s all I have to say about that.

Very well said, but you should have used bullet points smile

Pirate jujitsu FTW!

might as well give it away directly instead of some anonymous person putting it on a torrent site in crappy quality. People that are going to pay will most likely always pay. People that won’t pay won’t…or maybe they can’t pay this instance, but they will later and in the mean time tell all their friends about it.

High quality digital files are the way to to go… people need/want immediate satisfaction anymore which is to go over to their computer and click a button to download. CDs are cumbersome and take up room. Artwork could be better viewed on 40” plasmas vs. a tiny square in a jewel case. It all costs less and you don’t need to manufacture anything.

of course still make CDs for people who still like buying them to collect, but the majority are shifting to all digital. It’s just the way information is being taken in by people now…it needs to go faster and be convenient or its not interesting (if you’ve not heard it yet before).

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Posted: 04 November 2009 08:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 457 ]  
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I just went and bought the new album and dvd plus a t-shirt and another album, i will buy some more albums next month.. End of the day, we have to support shpongle and twisted as they are worth it.

If you have this mentality of i’ve got the mp3 for free so i dont need to spend money to buy the albums, this is so wrong on many levels - even if your logical mind tells you this you have to override it, you just have to bite the bullet and do it for the music and the people behind the music.

Theres no excuse to talk about failing business models etc. we are the Shpongle tribe and we should support them no matter what.

On the live events, i just want to make one comment that the sub-bass was too much, so much we couldn’t hear the music - last year had the same problem at the roundhouse, even though we were in two totally different places each year (right at the back last year and right at the front this year)

I think its something to do with the acoustics of the roundhouse..

Anyway, it was good though we had to leave early because my partner is pregnant.

Keep going with the music, maybe create a special secret forum area for people who bought the album to keep the trolls out grin

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Posted: 04 November 2009 09:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 458 ]  
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I think the issue here is about if people want a quality experience or if we want artists like shpongle to take up a shitty job on the side so that the the music comes second, or even worse: forcing them to jump aboard a larger label.

Im not a big fan and I refuse to buy tshirts, but from what I’ve heard and understood, Shpongle music can be a profound experience, so to conclude with my own view, Il either buy it or never listen to it, except from through spotify.

When I find the buy-highquality-digital-album-button, Il press it.

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Posted: 04 November 2009 09:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 459 ]  
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oljefat - 04 November 2009 09:47 PM

Im not a big fan and I refuse to buy tshirts.

If you’re not a big fan, why did you sign up to make that one post?

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Posted: 04 November 2009 09:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 460 ]  
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because the question is important

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Posted: 04 November 2009 09:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 461 ]  
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oljefat - 04 November 2009 09:57 PM

because the question is important

What question?  Sorry, i don’t really understand what you are trying to say in your above post! Sounds like i will listen to all music on spotify, and won’t buy any music, maybe i’m wrong

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Posted: 04 November 2009 10:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 462 ]  
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IF people want a quality experience or if we want artists like shpongle to take up a shitty job on the side so that the the music comes second, or even worse: forcing them to jump aboard a larger label.

in answer to your Edit: when you listen to a song on spotify, the artist is paid.

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Posted: 04 November 2009 10:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 463 ]  
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oljefat - 04 November 2009 10:04 PM

IF people want a quality experience or if we want artists like shpongle to take up a shitty job on the side so that the the music comes second, or even worse: forcing them to jump aboard a larger label.

Hmm.. quality experience and shpongle delights please!


In answer to spotify: i don’t think artists get paid very much from it, do they? I’m not sure, need to look it up..

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Posted: 05 November 2009 12:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 464 ]  
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psy4ia - 04 November 2009 10:20 PM
oljefat - 04 November 2009 10:04 PM

IF people want a quality experience or if we want artists like shpongle to take up a shitty job on the side so that the the music comes second, or even worse: forcing them to jump aboard a larger label.

Hmm.. quality experience and shpongle delights please!


In answer to spotify: i don’t think artists get paid very much from it, do they? I’m not sure, need to look it up..

Oljefat - I’ll have to agree with Psy4ia; I don’t understand what message you’re trying to convey. You begin to sound like you’re pitching support, but then it becomes somewhat contradictory towards the end.

If you want to support an artist/band/whatever, I doubt the revenue from plays on Spotify will help them. If everyone did that, the artist would get bugger all compared to record sales or mainstream radio play (even that doesn’t bring in enough).

The ‘buy high quality button’ can be found here: http://www.twisteddownloads.com/

Which reminds me: Can someone of authority make Twisted Downloads a main link on the top of the site, please? Digital music fans don’t seem to know about it.

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Posted: 05 November 2009 03:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 465 ]  
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MRF - 05 November 2009 12:20 AM

Which reminds me: Can someone of authority make Twisted Downloads a main link on the top of the site, please? Digital music fans don’t seem to know about it.

On the home page there is a link to the downloads plus on every link at the top you click there is always a link to the shop and the downloads. Apart from Forum and Shop(which seems the obvious place to have link for it)

I can’t see the need for another link at the top when there are so many links to it already.
I would suggest having a link in the shop though.

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