urgh. i understand where you’re coming from, and i agree that it’s fascinating to contemplate infinity within a finite space (paradoxes in general are fun to contemplate). what i’m saying is that his hypotheses are scientifically bullshit, there’s no way around that. they’re basically really bad interpretations of existing theories, and he has used absolutely no absolutely no scientific observation / evidence to come to his conclusions.
it’s one thing to have some cool ideas and talk about them - nothing wrong with that. it’s a completely different matter to go out and claim that your cool ideas are as significant as einstein’s (the amount of times he makes that comparison is really sad) when you have no evidence to back it and when your reasoning is poor at best.
so i’m not suggesting this guy should be shut up, i hope he continues to work on his story because it’s entertaining. i’m just worried that people will take him seriously, because he is presenting his ideas in such a seemingly scientific way. to me it is just as misleading as all the 9/11 conspiracy sites / talks / presentations - you have these ‘scientists’ who are at the fringe of the establishment and use their tenuous links with real research and universities to basically sell a bullshit story. it’s not that uncommon nowadays.
as to terrence mckenna - yes, a lot of what he did/said was pseudoscientific. i respect him for his unique ability to articulate mystical / psychedelic experiences, because his descriptions have become widely influential. he was extremely good with words, and he just so happened to be one of the few people capable and willing to talk about deep psychedelic experiences at the time. but he also made a lot of unverifiable claims and presented them as facts. i’m guessing that he played a big part in the ‘DMT takes you to another dimension’ myth, which people still regurgitate to this day (even on this forum).
so in summary, ideas are cool, they should be explored as much as possible and challenged continuously, but once they overlap with the physical world they need to be rooted in observational evidence in order to be taken seriously. even string theory (which encompasses a little bit more than 8 pages of rudimentary equations…) is currently in a precarious position, because there have not been any observations yet to support it (although there are a few experiments in the works to look for evidence).
Flavius, its important to note, that you do not know everything, and do not get the final say on everything either.
You come off with a tone of disrespect (Im sure not even intentionally), and ego rich self assuredness.
Basically all im saying is dont go around saying “This or that theory is bullshit, or Its wrong and has no scientific proof”
The fact is: Many people disagree with eachother, and always will. It is important to be respectful of other peoples beliefs and opinions. Expecially in a place like this, we need to project conciousness, instead of unconciousness.
For example one particular bit of your post which offended me : (there are other bits, your whole post in fact is negative and un-concious)
“ut he also made a lot of unverifiable claims and presented them as facts. i’m guessing that he played a big part in the ‘DMT takes you to another dimension’ myth, which people still regurgitate to this day (even on this forum).”
This is offensive and ignorant. First off, like i said, YOU DO NOT KNOW MAN, NO ONE DOES!! We cant even decide on what is “real” or not, or if anything is “real” at all. Certaintly unless you know alot about the nature of existance us other humans dont, you are IN NO POSITION to go about calling any of these theories and ideas hogwash or untrue. Can you, for instance prove to me that smoking DMT DOES NOT take you to another dimension??
It cannot be proven, in fact it is hard to prove ANYTHING. So please respect other peoples views, just because someone disagrees with you, does not mean they are wrong and an idiot. Please show respect for other peoples cognative abilities.
Not trying to start a fight man, just my 2 cents. Its not just you, Im actually rather dissapointed with the shallow posts, and lack of true understanding on this particular forum.
Just wanted to say, amazing thread and ideas tokepeli, you hit the nail on the head with this one, i would really love to see more deep and detailed and understanding threads like this where we get into the details of what the music symbolizes and means to different people. Sorry if i hijacked the thread in a negative direction, it seems thats the only viewpoint i can offer on this site :(
i’m sorry if i offended anyone - that wasn’t my intention. but i stand by every statement i made in the above post.
there is very little in this world that i value more than science, and i have been defending it for years in arguments with religious people, climate sceptics, gay-bashers, and now ‘mystics.’ i guess in this particular case, i don’t have a very good reason for getting worked up, because it’s hardly like you guys are going to take this misinformation and make some really bad life decisions, hurt anyone, or anything like that. so for that i sincerely apologise.
but i used to be really fascinated by conspiracy ‘theories’, until i actually started looking for real information on them rather than just believing everything the documentary told me. and upon investigating the people behind these conspiracies, i found quite a few noticeable patterns. for example, they tend to portray themselves as being part of the scientific establishment (always proud to display their qualifications), but always on the fringes. there is always a narrative about how they have been treated unfairly by the establishment, or shunned for having ‘radical’ ideas. they also put a lot of effort into spreading their ideas by appealing to the masses (us), who aren’t qualified to discern the inconsistencies in their arguments. i recommend you check out some 9/11 conspiracy sites - on face value they look really convincing! let’s face it, when presented with compelling graphs that seem to line up, and when bombarded with arguments that appear to be logically consistent on the surface, of course a lot of people will believe it.
think about it - if these hypotheses were truly this groundbreaking, then why would the scientific community not welcome them with open arms? let me guess, you probably think this guy is a misunderstood genius (which is exactly the way he portrays himself in all his videos).
at the end of the day this isn’t a big deal. sure, he is scamming people for donation for a bogus science project, but we live in a world where billions of dollars are spent on war, sport, entertainment, etc. - a bit more money being wasted isn’t going to make any difference. i just want you all to think about the millions of scientists around the world who are working their arses off within the evil ‘establishment’ trying to improve our understanding of the universe and ourselves, and without whom we wouldn’t be communicating with each other half-way across the world. these are the victims who i feel sorry for, because common people disregard their work in favour of amateurs who know how to sell their ideas over the internet.
and now, back THE BIG QUESTION - does smoking DMT literally take you to another dimension?
first of all, do you understand what ‘other dimensions’ are? my guess is that your understanding of ‘other dimensions’ aligns with the use of the term in shows such as teenage mutant ninja turtles - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimension_X_(TMNT)
sadly, the use of dimensions is a misnomer, and what they are actually referring to is some kind of parallel universe. DIMENSIONS refer to measurements of space and time, and have nothing to do with parallel universes - they are within our own universe. so to make this argument at least half-worthwhile, let’s stick with parallel universe.
so can i prove that smoking DMT doesn’t take me to a parallel universe? well, as you correctly said, nothing can be proven to be true. but there are various levels of certainty. i can’t prove that the sun will rise tomorrow, but i’m pretty bloody certain that it will. so to keep this argument grounded, let’s examine what DMT is - it’s a psychoactive drug of the tryptamine family. it is chemically very similar to LSD, psilocybin, and THC. now, do you think that smoking weed takes you to a parallel universe? i’m guessing no. does dropping acid take you to a parallel universe? for me, it kinda just really distorts my experience of this universe.
so what makes you think that DMT transports you to another universe? do you think you are in another universe when you dream? do you truly think that you are outside of your body when you are having an out-of-body experience?
in that case, you are not listening to the science. either you haven’t been exposed to it, or you are intentionally disregarding what it tells you about reality, in favour of a narrative that better suits your desires. and that’s fine, you can believe what you want. but don’t for one second think that your belief is as equally valid as any scientific theory. this is exactly what religious people believe. when someone says that the hurricanes that have been hitting the US are god’s way of punishing the people for allowing homosexuality in their society, they hold up their belief as being just as valid as the science that explains the weather patterns.
again, i sincerely apologise for ruining the mood of this thread, but i just can’t let this kind of stuff go without saying something. i will try to be more constructive with my contributions in the future.
As far as the dmt expereince goes, i think its rediculous that anybody can be so closed minded, egotistical and conceded enough to even think for a second that they have any idea what is “real” and what is not. For all you know, this entire lifetime IS a dream, so what makes you think that experiences that you have in a dream or while high on dmt are any less real than the experiences you have while caught up in the illusion of phisycal existence? is it beacause waking life seems to be governed by certain laws of physics? Maybe those laws are also an illusion created by the collecive unconcious? Lets face it, we have no clue what is real and what is not, it may be comforting to your ego to assume that this “life” is real but at the end of the day no matter how unsettling it is i think you know deep down that ultimately we just dont understand yet.
That aside, i beleive the title of this thread is “The Fractal Geometry of Conciousness in Nothing Lasts but Nothing is Lost”, if i recall, i started this thread to discuss fractal geometry and how it is a microcosm to everything that exists, tangible or non tangible, and how Si and Raj were somehow genius enough to express this with music. I would like to continue a discussion about why you think you know what is real and what is not, but maybe we can do that in a new thread.
Tokapelli—i apologize in advance for merely skimming, i’m sadly impatient, BUT: i would love to know you better. what you say about fractals applying not just to math (and i have a degree in mathematics), but to perhaps emotions as well (let me take emotions, because that is the most natural thing for me), you are speaking my language. even emotions build on themselves and each one is only a smaller (and bigger, but we get to that later…) representation of itself. i apologize i’m not in a better mind than to make everything sound circularly uninteresting, but I GET WHAT YOU’RE SAYING. and i also agree wholeheartedly that shpongle/posford seems to feed and feed into that. THAT IS WHY I LOVE THE MUSIC.
Dimethyltryptamine, or divine moments of truth i s’pose, what does that have to do with anything? what does it have to do with fractal geometry and how it relates to Nothing lasts but Nothing is lost? just trying to get the conversation back on track.
My understanding of a dimension is not the same as a parrallel universe. For me Space is a dimension, time is a dimension, and there are unseen dimensions connecting us to eachother and everything else, the mind itself is a dimension. Modern science in fact is confirming the existence of these hidden and macro level dimensions. I believe through use of tryptamines including dmt psylocybin and ayahuasca brews, many of these hidden spiritual dimensions are revealed to us.
The quote “Nothing Lasts but Nothing is Lost” comes from a Terence Mckenna lecture.. Anyone found a recording of the whole lecture?? Shpongle is in many ways inspired by Mckenna’s works, and he is sampled liberally throughout all the shpongle cd’s.
The title Nothing Lasts but Nothing Losts is such a deep title on many levels. Also the music has many layers and levels which work together perfectly, Perhaps symbolic of the existance of many layers or levels of awareness and existance.
I really like the concept your hitting on with the cycles/ fractal evolving concept. For me i know exactly what you are talking about, and this is indeed a good understanding of the concepts the album conveys. Thats what the album does, points to this cycle of life that is eternal, but ever evolving. It is really a concept beyond words, but a truth which must be realized instead of just talked about.
Just as our body is a temporary vessel for our soul/conciousness, it will one day die, and the soul leaves the body, but I believe our essence continues on or is reborn.
One thing I think is important to note about the fractal. You were talking about how you can zoom infanately on the fractal and see the same repeating pattern. I believe there is an underlying pattern to life, and this is what the fractal geometry points too. But the pattern is spiral, fractal, not circular not whole, not complete. That ties into the concept of “Nothing Lasts” because life is not an infanately repeating circle, but rather an evolving spiral. Things are not always the same, and are constantly evolving. Think about it, life started on this planet as microbes in a biological primordial soup, and then evolved into all sorts of other creatures, like dinosaurs and other now extinct creatures (nothing lasts), then evolved into mammals and even intelligent mammals like our ape ancestors. Then came us, everything is evolving, compounding and changing. The universe is being compressed to try to self realise itself inside our minds. That is the purpose of the evolution of life. If we can wake up to the fact that we are all one, and realise our god-nature on a collective level, then i believe that is the purpous of the evolution of the planet. What we are all moving towords.
And indeed to me it seems there is some unseen force pulling us in this direction. I dont think we are just randomly and chaotically forming our own destiny, but rather just playing our part in the fractal pattern of life moving towards destiny. This is why i beleive the fibbonocci sequence the fractals, the spiral, none of them are whole, or completed, or stagnant, rather they are spinning, they are not in perfection but in evolution, something is pulling them, making them spin. Perhaps it is like a psycho-spiritual gravity at the end of time pulling us towards our destiny. Perhaps it is the fully realized and awakened human organizm at the end of time trying to communicate itself with us, reveal itself to us. Either way i think everything is compressing and speeding up. From bacteria, to dinos to apes, to neandrathals in millions of years, and then thousands of years, and an explosion or evolution of the human mind occurs. We are still riding out the effects of this evolution and where it goes we do not know. But consider that we are more and more, accessing sub-concious and mental dimensions as humans and even as a culture collectively. The internet is a great example of the hardware model of the human sub-concious, or the collective mind of the species. Consider the possibility that the reason for this evolution is so we can move into the vast and unexplored vistas of potential within the dimensions of the mind and imagination.
Indeed when you ingest tryptamines or as i like to put it consult the plant teachers, Behind this experience is indeed a microcosm for the life death pattern. Your old ideals and beliefs are torn down, exposed for what they are, often this is a very difficult process, and latent and repressed issues can be brought to the surface, but this is so you can accept these things, and then let go of them. You undergo this symbolic death, and then re-birth into a new and fascinating world. You are, for a brief while, outside of time, outside of history, and timeless and universal aspects of the universe are seen. Then of course there is the “other”. Ive experienced and even consulted this entity many times, and it is what i believe to be the evolution of the human soul outside of time, existing in the dimensions of the mind outside of physical space and time (what exactly are these dimensions of the mind) Or perhaps it is the higher self. Or perhaps it is an alien entity/mushroom spirit. One cannot be sure. But what I am sure of is that this “other” exists, and i think it ties in with where this fractal evolution of conciousness is ultimately headed.
Went on a bit of a random rant there, not sure if it even makes good sense, but just trying to contribute to the conversation with the limited ability of language.
Would love to hear any other ideas in regards to this topic, because were really hitting at the core here
speaking about getting the conversation back on track, thanks for your post sister.blackleg.herring, thats what i wanted to talk about in making this thread. like i said before, the fractal quality of existence is something that i recognized many years ago with my first expereinces with cubensis, but i had no idea what mathmatical fractals were at the time. Also I remember being facinated with this type of thing from a very yound age. I must have been in first grade or even younger than that, but my mom gave me a book, and on the cover of the book was a picture of a lady reading the same book to her son, and of course on the cover of that book the picture was repeated, over and over again. Harmolosa, im not sure if you still have it but do you remember that Pink Floyd Echoes poster you had in your room? Thats the same type of picture, maybe i can find it online and post it here.
Now i realize that we have been trying to articulate this idea for many years throughout history, and i wouldnt be suprised if mushrooms were our first teachers in this subject. I think that realization of this cycle or pattern can liberate you from it in a way, i dont think its possible to remove yourself from it. Its kinda like Mckenna says in True Hallucinations talking aobut his timewave 0 theory, (i know you probably have a thousand reasons as to why that theory is complete bs flavius, honestly i dont really understand it yet but what he says about it can apply to this conversation wether the theory is valid or not) he says, “if over the years of study one becomes convinced that the wave does show the future of novelty, then the oridary anticipation of the future is gradually replaced with an almost Zen-like appreciation and understanding of the complete pattern.”
This is not a new idea, there is a sanscrit word for this, wich is by no coincidence the same word that Aldous Huxley uses in his book “Island” for psychedelic mushrooms. The people that live on the island call the mushrooms Moksha Medicine, Moksha is the sanskrit word for liberation from samsara. Samsara is the endless repeating cycle of life and death. So my point is people have been trying to explain this thru art, music, literature, and religion throughout human history, and now we are explaining it with math. We are all talking about the same thing, we just have different ways of explaining it and putting it in terms that are easier for our limited egos to understand. If we can come to the understanding that we are all talking about the same exact thing, just with different labels, we can start to work together towards our common goal of a more complete understanding instead of getting into pointless arguments and wars that are only leading us to our own destruction, and maybe even the destruction of this beautiful planet that we are so lucky to live on.
I agree with everything you said in that last post but i dont think that its nessacarily heading to any particular point, or conclusion, its infinite, we will always feel like we are getting close to the top of the mountain but im not sure it exists.
Thats actually a poster from Ummagumma man, but yeah i know exactly what your talking about.
I dont think a realisation of this process alone can liberate you from the cycle, because we are talking about the process right now. No i think were stuck in this process until it culminates into something else, and no amount of talking or explaining will bring us to a common ground about what exactly this cycle of life is. Rather i think an outside event or force, will force our conciousnesses collectively into the next phase of existance.
If we do make our own destiny, we are in terribly dangerous times, and are hell-bent on a path of self-destruction. If destiny is a force like gravity, then inevitably, everything is on track and perfect exactly as it should be the only way it can be, and we are merely fulfilling our parts in the cosmic joke, for ultimately we are powerless agianst the forces of life and were just along for the ride, meant to experience, and revel in the mystery.
That said i think there are things we can do now to channel this energy, and project it to other people. The pieces of the puzzle are starting to come together, and all we really have to do is dive in and commit to learning the lessons the teacher offers, and also to recognize the subtle flow of life and creation and living in alignment with that flow.
edit: lol yeah dude we must be posting at exactly the same time lol.
Edit again: I think its important to note that althought the image continuously repeats itself endlessley, that in each occurance of the image the members of the band are in different positions, rotating spots and poses with the other band members.
Just realised i am missing something. Perhaps as you say, there is no end to this cycle as you say. I guess ive always thought of it as destiny and at the end of the journey is the ascension of conciousness into a new dimension.
But i failed to think about it as a cycle that has no beginning, and no end.
What i mean is, perhaps this external force im talking about that pushes our conciousness to the next level, is actually in fact death. and is not some end goal to be reached, but rather is going on all the time. And that next level/outside of time/ascension plane, exists simultaneously with our physical incarnate realm and influences and is influenced by it. The many levels of existence feeding into and off of eachother, in the brilliantly intricate tapestry that is life.